HomeArticleChina Is Issuing The Same “Red Line” Warnings About Taiwan That Russia Issued About Ukraine

China Is Issuing The Same “Red Line” Warnings About Taiwan That Russia Issued About Ukraine

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House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has continued to pour gasoline on the foreign policy dumpster fire that is her planned visit to Taiwan next month, now reportedly encouraging other members of congress to come along for the ride.

“Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., has invited a small group of lawmakers on her official trip to Taiwan, including the top Democrat and Republican on the House Foreign Affairs Committee,” NBC News reports.

This trip, which Beijing perceives as an egregious transgression of Washington’s longstanding one-China policy, is already so incendiary that the Pentagon is now planning to send in fighter jets and other war machinery to protect Pelosi’s plane in case of attacks by the Chinese military.

AP reports:

While U.S. officials say they have little fear that Beijing would attack the U.S. House speaker’s plane, they are aware that a mishap, misstep or misunderstanding could endanger her safety. So the Pentagon is developing plans for any contingency.

 

Officials told The Associated Press that if Pelosi goes to Taiwan — still an uncertainty — the military would increase its movement of forces and assets in the Indo-Pacific region. They declined to provide details, but said that fighter jets, ships, surveillance assets and other military systems would likely be used to provide overlapping rings of protection for her flight to Taiwan and any time on the ground there.

This risk alone would be reason enough to cancel the trip, but adding to the concern is the fact that the Chinese government has begun warning against it using the same “red line” language that Russia was using in the lead-up to its invasion of Ukraine.

“We have repeatedly made clear our our firm opposition to Speaker Pelosi’s potential visit to Taiwan. If the US side insists on making the visit and challenges China’s red line, it will be met with resolute countermeasures,” China’s Foreign Ministry spokesperson Zhao Lijiang said Wednesday. “The U.S. must assume full responsibility for any serious consequence arising thereof.”

China has been using this same language since news first broke about Pelosi’s planned trip, with Chinese state media Global Times saying last week that “visiting Taiwan is definitely a red line that Pelosi must never cross.”

During the lead-up to the invasion of Ukraine, Russia was issuing similar warnings using the same phrase. Putin warned over and over again that the west was taking Moscow’s “red lines” on Ukrainian neutrality too lightly, and Washington brazenly dismissed those warnings while continuing to float the possibility of future NATO membership for Ukraine.

“I don’t accept anybody’s red lines,” President Biden told the press in December of last year when asked about the warnings.

Weeks later Putin made good on his threat, launching a horrific war that has killed thousands and which could easily have been prevented with a few low-cost concessions.

“This is that red line that I talked about multiple times,” Putin said. “They have crossed it.”

Was it worth it?

Of course not.

Failing to learn from history is one thing; failing to learn even from the last five months is quite another. Pelosi and whoever’s orchestrating her trip should abort those plans immediately, because the dangers that are being toyed with here are not worth the moral victory of being able to say that China didn’t make you swerve in the stupidest game of “chicken” that has ever been played.

And that’s exactly what’s happening here. China’s “red line” warnings make it clear that Pelosi landing in Taiwan will at best kick up brinkmanship between the two nations another notch, while Republicans are aggressively pushing the narrative that if the trip doesn’t happen it will mean that “Communist China is winning.” The political pressure is on the side of escalation, with even progressive Democrats supporting Pelosi’s move and calls for de-escalation and detente becoming increasingly relegated to the sidelines.

We shouldn’t have to deal with this. We shouldn’t be watching a whole new country added to the potential flashpoints for nuclear armageddon just because some octogenarian in congress is too old to care if her plane gets shot down. We shouldn’t be risking another deadly conflict which stands to benefit no ordinary person over what amounts to nothing more than petty egoic chest-pounding.

We shouldn’t have to hope that the world’s most powerful people don’t take some idiotic risks for no good reason which could hurt us all or even end up getting us all killed. We should not have systems in place which can allow the worst things imaginable to happen if the tyrants who rule over us don’t happen to make the wisest decision on any given day.

Our futures shouldn’t depend upon the better angels of the worst monsters. Those with power have far too much of it, and the ordinary people of this world have not nearly enough.

___________________

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Latest comments

  • Scott Ritter has some interesting comments on this situation in his 8/2/22 interview with judge Napolitano , which is available to view on Bitchute. The interviewer, alas, seems to have never found a historical incident he can’t distort for partisan purposes but Ritter’s comments are as always thought-provoking, with the insider perspectives of a former Marine Intelligence Colonel and weapons inspector who warned the Iraq War was based on lines. The establishment punished his truth telling by snaring him not once but twice in online sex stings (a la Julian Assange’s fake rape accusation) which saw him convicted and imprisoned for over two years.

  • China trying to take Taiwan militarily would be the height of folly. When China is subjected to the same sort of sanctions Russia is laboring under now, they would lose nearly half their population by starvation inside of a year.

    China’s major vulnerability is not military, although their military record isn’t good. It’s feeding their people, and they can’t feed themselves on their own resources.

    • Any Chinese response will NOT be to “take Taiwan militarily.” It is already a province of the People’s Republic of China. The American government was even a signatory to the treaty that made that fact official. The point of any action would be to remind Washington of this and that the US has zero say in the affairs of Taiwan. Ms. Pelosi’s time would be better spent trying to mitigate America’s pending economic collapse, or are you completely oblivious to that crisis?
      ~
      As to Russian-level American sanctions against China, indeed that would be a perfect way for Washington to shoot itself in both feet and the back of its own head. You did notice how all the sanctions against Russia over Ukraine have some back to bite Nato and the EU in the ass big time. Now consider that the US has moved nearly its entire industrial base to China, including the manufacture of many high tech weapons components and spare parts, also much of its essential chemical stocks and pharmaceuticals manufacturing, all obtainable from no other source at this time, and reason out for yourself who is going to be the recipient of this perfect storm you are advocating. As to its people starving and dropping approximately 750 million in population, I daresay that China has many more international friends and trading partners than does the US. They’ve got it covered.
      ~
      Sorry, but you neocon fanatics failed to strangle the Chinese economy, its industrial powerhouse and emerging top flight science establishment in the crib a couple of decades back when you might have had a chance. Now go back to playing “army,” Mr. Quartermaster and try to outwit your fellow third graders.

  • America is sinking. Things are really badly backing up nazism in Ukraine. A war with china would just finish the job. China is the hardcore of the American economy.

  • Johnstone changed my mind on the likelihood of nuclear war a few months ago. I now must agree with her assessment. We are very close.

  • My suspicion of how this plays out is that Nancy’s political enemies in the US will somehow ensure an accident befalls her and then make it appear that China is responsible – two birds with one stone – and the war that ensues to feed US WMD shareholder profits! False Flag. Silly Nancy – and the whole world suffers to soothe an unhinged US.

    • That’s a good one. Pretty easy to pull off too.
      It could also be a one bird one stone operation, an in, even though we all love Nancy, opportunities like this don’t come around very often.
      “The orders are: shoot down the Speaker’s plane, and let’s get this war started!”

  • These damn fools are going to get all of us killed.

  • Have you noticed how the NAFO bots are starting to model simple, submissive speech and behavior? The Pomarenko “bruh” thread has a good example. “You literally have no idea who @IAPonomarenko
    is and what their job entails do you?” because having a Job, being the condom between the world and someone else’s will, is something to celebrate! Subordination is sacred! Lick the boot and say milud!

  • Heya Caitlin, you didn’t make the Ukrainian “Black List”. Better step up your game.

    Don’t feel too bad, though. Neither did Jimmy Dore. I’m sure he’s pretty wounded over that.

    • He is! He said it! :o)

  • Moom of Alabama breaks down Yves Smith’s article from yesterday, and more.
    https://www.moonofalabama.org/2022/07/provoking-beijing.html#
    You know, whatever we may think of this particular red line (the Pelosi Line?), there are no grey areas surrounding it. It is as simple and straightforward as a red line can be.
    The US will not be able to pretend it was unaware there was one this time, and play the role of the shocked and innocent non-aggressor.
    In fact, the shoe will be very much on the other foot, which means our propaganda machine is going have to work double overtime to sell this one, and even that might be enough.
    Here’s another sentence I’ve written a thousand times on the web:
    Too smart China.

  • Perhaps the American dictatorship plans to implement Michelle Flournoy’s infamous scheme to sink the entire Chinese fleet around the entire world within 72 hours and declare a quick victory in WWIII. “Let that be a lesson to ya dastardly Chi-Coms, as we give you a break and take a pass on occupying your scurrilous country after our great naval victory!” “Remember, there’s more of this if you won’t bow to our will.”
    ~
    Even assuming the Chinese have no defensive capabilities to mask and shield their warships, what dauntless anti-ship missile capability does the US have besides the “Harpoon” missiles that Ukraine claims to be using to sink Russian battleships on multiple occasions daily (at least in their imaginations)? The daily bullshit on YouTube claims that now even the fecking Danes are sinking Russian warships. Said so today, with the cowering Russian captain the first to abandon ship! Isn’t winning glorious, my fellow Americans?
    ~
    Or maybe Lord Biden is simply hoping that the American people believe the propaganda they have planned for mainly American consumption. Maybe both sides can claim they won WWIII and we can all go about our normal business? If it comes to real “put up or shut up” action, America may not be in the advantageous position it fantasizes.
    ~
    I say, as Pootykins did a few days ago borrowing from Dubya Shrub’s verbal repertoire, “bring it on!” China should draw its red line using its ships of the line, including its carriers, and encircle Taiwan, daring the American berserkers to try something by air or sea, and find out what happens. Why even build ’em unless you plan to use ’em when the challenge comes? It may be the day that the Orient finally gives some pay back for Commodore Perry’s forcibly “opening up” Japan to the West at gunpoint, assuming Washington would wisely accept its invitation to dine on roasted crow for the evening.
    ~
    It would be most interesting to see Nancy detained for acts of war against the People’s Republic and an overt violation of the “One China Treaty” to which Washington is a signatory. Might be just as “entertaining” as the three-year house arrest of the female Huawei CFO by our vassals in Canada. If Washington genuinely wants a shooting war with China and not just more dramatics, this is their chance, this is a sure trigger if they choose to pull it. If Nancy and her congressional posse of both D and R warmongers proceed on to Taiwan by plane or ship, there will be an armada shadowing them from all directions. There might be a hundred ships from both sides. The old bag and her dead carcass would litter the pages of history for the rest of our sorry history… if there is one. Talk about the follies of human kind. This is all for ego, American ego, and nothing of necessity.
    ~
    This is getting pretty redundant with what others have already said, so 再見,祝你好運
    ~
    I see that 2022 is the year of the tiger in the Chinese Zodiac. Is that a good year to die? For everyone on Earth to die? Just asking.

    • I’m surprised Lord Biden hasn’t challenged Putin and Xi to a push up contest yet… What’s the world coming to?

  • Biden, Harris and Pelosi actually make Trump and HRC look competent.

  • Lest we forget, Pelosi is a not so apparent voice for Israel interests. We might ask how
    a confrontation with China might be in Israeli interests?

    • When the turmoil cranks the Israelis are going to nuke Iran, though they’d prefer someone else uses nukes first.

      • They’d better have their shit planned airtight though because if they nuke Iran and Iran has only got one conventional missile left somewhere – and they’ve got some very good ones quite capable of flying 500 miles – and they shoot it at Dimona’s stockpile, not only is it the end of the Israeli nuking but Israel and its people are wiped straight off the map for a few centuries…

        • Oh please. If the missile got through Iron Dome and whatever Patriots the Israelis have, and if it breached the reactor containment vessel, the worst you would get is core dispersal by a conventional explosive and some mostly localized fallout out in the desert. Wouldn’t be above the fold with nukes going off.

          • Maybe… I’m not an expert. There’s also the possibility that the Israeli nukes are intercepted in mid-air and conventional Iranian missiles are then shot at Jerusalem, Tel Aviv and Haifa. I don’t think nuking Iran would be like shooting fish in a barrel.

  • Biden, Kamala and Pelosi are not able to lead even local municipality.
    They are for urgent hospitalization so first 3 in succession line are non existent.
    We dont need fancy AI from Terminator to end us just stupid teleprompter.
    Russia and Chine will stand together militarily, use hypersonic missiles on carriers and even nuclear they will respond together. They dont need article 5 just Putin and Xi shake hands and they already did it.
    Ukraine and Taiwan is completely same because it is civil war on both places.
    Third hot spot is Iran if RU and Chine backup them Israel can just watch them testing nuclear weapons.
    All of that is cool compering with North Korea because nobody knows what that guy will do.
    So, as Scott Ritter sad we are lucky if we make it to 2023.

  • “We shouldn’t have to hope that the world’s most powerful people don’t take some idiotic risks for no good reason which could hurt us all or even end up getting us all killed”.

    Especially with taxpayers’ money! This trip to Taiwan plan is surrealistic at best but at least, you could understand it if Crazy Nancy said: “OK, I’m gonna sell a few ice cream pots on e-Bay to buy me a ticket to Taipei!”. But no! She plans to use taxpayers’ money to go on a trip that has no strategic value for them and is only meant to show the voters that no, the Dems are not China’s puppets – in spite of the Bidens’ folklore – contrary to the Reps who are Russia’s puppets via Trump’s alleged (albeit debunked) allegiance to Putin.

    Let’s hope the Chinese understand this is only a US electoral home issue and will treat it as such as they probably will. Xi is described by everybody as a calm man. Ain’t gonna start shooting nukes just because an escapee from the geriatric ward is throwing a tantrum.

    Then again the Chinese probably also understand that they’ve got to draw a red line somewhere because the Americans think the whole shebang belongs to them, starting with their name. If you think of it, it’s the only country in the world whose citizens don’t have a specific name but squat that of the continent to which other nation-states are just as entitled. They call themselves Americans, as if the inhabitants of one country in Europe called themselves Europeans instead of French, British, Germans, Spanish… Isn’t that weird? And they resent the Canadians for not wanting to be called Americans! Can’t make that stuff up!

    Spanish speakers call them “estadounidenses” to differentiate them. Logical but vade retro Satanas! Won’t have none of that shit north of the Rio Grande for Christ’s sake!

    And then there’s the double standards for which the Americans are competing at Guinness levels. Remember the other day when they were upset because the Chinese visited the independent Solomon Islands to talk business? That obviously belongs to them. It’s their influence zone which goes from Capitol Hill to the far end of the Milky Way and growing. Gotta laugh… But that’s the way they are… The Syrian oil is theirs. Trump was very clear about Iraq too: “We should have taken the oil!”

    You mean “stolen”? No, it’s ours! Like all these mineral resources and rare earth, lithium and so forth that we need for our technology… How could people have the gall to build countries on subsoils that are rightfully ours because they contain stuff we need and don’t want to pay for?

    So Taiwan? Well it’s obviously American property and Pelosi can obviously go there on vacation with the US taxpayers money (which is also her property) and the other Red Scare freaks will be only too happy on both sides to fill a charter with more taxpayers’ money so that “Chinese communism won’t win”.

    Let’s hope the airline carries a few straitjackets on that flight just in case…

    • Typo “How could people have the gall to build countries on subsoils that are rightfully ours” should read “how could UNPEOPLE have the gall…” :o)

    • The war dogs in the PLA are going bark so loud I fear that all other council will drowned out.
      Besides, I read somewhere this morning that the “situation” has already been handed over to the military, in other words, the decades old red line plan has been put in to effect.
      I said yesterday they should let Pelosi come, it might even work to China’s long tern benefit, but what do I know, I’m not Chinese, I haven’t spent the last three centuries getting shit on by the West.
      “Then again the Chinese probably also understand that they’ve got to draw a red line somewhere … ”
      Exactly. The thinking is, the US is going to force us to the extreme at some point, so let’s get this over with now.

      • Yet everybody on both sides knows that military escalation wouldn’t get them anywhere, that nuclear war has no winners and that they’re strategic business partners. I see the situation more like this:

        • That gibbon is more agile and clever than the bullies in Washington. Besides, the primate cannot afford to miscalculate on even one of his hilarious dive bomb attacks on the tigers, as they would shred his ass. I’m assuming you think it’s the ape playing the role of the US, as he is the reckless aggressor. But, yeah, nice parallel to the human zoo. Makes about as much sense.

          • It can be seen both ways really. Alternatively, it’s the monkey’s territory that the tigers occupy like the US Navy the South China Sea. In which case the monkey’s actions remind me of Gandhi’s address to the Brits: “… till you yourself see the wisdom of leaving…”

            • I can see that. At least the animals were “sensible” enough to quit their fighting / posturing before any of them got killed. Of course, they don’t have honor and face to maintain at the potential cost of death like the more primitive humans.

  • If we stop paying taxes to fund Congress’s war party, the whole ponzi scheme should collapse, according to the MMT. Also we should recall most of our Congressmen based on an insanity clause, and inability to balance the budget. There has to be a yearly test for psychological fitness for all in the US government. An empire of lunatics.

    • I hadn’t read your post when I wrote mine above but I see we’re in perfect synch. One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest is a realistic picture of normality in comparison :o)

      • Lunatics in Congress now propose to spend almost a billion $$$ “to fight inflation”, denying that their own spending is what is driving the inflation.
        But Chinese government “is bad”, while Putin “is evil”. Coming from lunatics, this sounds like a compliment.

    • MMT exposes the fact that taxes do not fund federal spending. All of Congress’s spending is done by issuing new currency. At the state and local levels, tax revenue is needed to fund projects. A possibility of another FDR era where government uses fiscal policy correctly and funds public purpose is the big fear. That’s why central banks want to be the sole controller of money in the form of their CBDCs. But money is a public utility, ultimately, and should remain so.

      • Western nation-state-hating capitalists are angry that Russia & China still use $ as a public utility, aka FDR (industrial capitalism).

        The finance capitalist con artists can’t have de-industrialization, world poverty and private sector global governance.

        Where the west went wrong:

        “China has kept money creation in the hands of the government itself so that when the government creates money it can finance the creation of factory plants and equipment, dams, transportation infrastructure, public housing.”

        “So the chief public utility to be kept in the public domain, (China realizes and has realized from the beginning) is the banking system and credit creation, even so there’s still private credit creation to some extent.”

        “You have to prevent people from getting rich not by providing any productive service at all but just by being good rip-off artists. That’s basically what finance capitalism is: opportunity for rip-off artists to get rich by taking money away from the 99%, into their own hands.”

        https://michael-hudson.com/2022/07/finance-capitalisms-self-destructive-nature/

  • Shout out from The Saker blog in a sitrep piece from Amarynth.
    http://thesaker.is/taiwan-is-a-distraction/
    Clearly the goal is to force China to invade Taiwan and create some kind quagmire type situation for the Chinese, but China isn’t Russia and Taiwan is not the Ukraine, not by a long fucking shot.
    If Pelosi goes, China will invade, that’s my read on this situation.
    So, two big question arise from this scenario. One, will Taiwan resist, and two, will the US attempt to intervene on Taiwan’s “behalf?”
    Intervention by the US will depend entirely on the first question, will Taiwan resist. My prediction is, no they will not. China will flow in with limited forces, some landings will be made, some flyovers will occur, there will be a parachute drop or two, a few shots will be fired, for face saving purposes, and then deals will be struck, most of them worked out long ago, and Taiwan’s “official new status” will be that they are to made an autonomous region of China, much like Tibet, Xianjing, Inner Mongolia, and … wait for it! … Taiwan are now, and then, and only then, will the fun will really begin.
    Because China is going to pissed for having to go through this unnecessary and embarrassing ordeal, and if I’m right, and I think am, China has tentacles so deep into every functional level of that which we call the United States, they can pull as many as is required and bring us to our knees in a fortnite.
    Putin showed the way you must go about these things in this Age of Nuclear Chicken. When your repeatedly stated final red line gets crossed, you calmly proceed to do what you gotta do and simply accept that if the US wants to end it all for everyone by starting a nuclear war, there’s nothing you can do about it.
    Putin and the Federation have chosen, for whatever reason, not to escalate to beyond a certain level. Perhaps because they have no wish to destroy Europe, as they are still their best customer, and mortally damaging the US, for the most part, is beyond their capabilities.
    This is not with case with China, and their red line that we are about to cross, unlike Ukraine, is sovereign territory.
    They are going to crush us should Pelosi fly, and that means, it is question time, and one that I’ve asked a thousand times on the internet, when the US begins its death rattle, will it go about the process peacefully, or will petulantly fire off it’s nukes before it expires?

    • President BelliJoeRunt can’t hear a pertinent question about his record without losing his temper on camera.

  • Right, Ukraine and Taiwan have equal dispositions to their behemoth neighbors. Except that Taiwan has been separated from China since 1895 when it was occupied and managed by Japan until the defeat of the Japanese in 1945 where it was ceded to the Republic of China.
    ~
    From Wikipedia History of Taiwan (1945–present) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Taiwan_(1945%E2%80%93present)
    ~
    In April 1950, amphibious operations were successful in conquering Hainan Island in April 1950, leading to the capture of Wanshan Islands off the Guangdong coast (May–August 1950) and Zhoushan Island off Zhejiang (May 1950).[12]
    ~
    This period of tension lasted until the Second Strait Crisis,[13] in which the United States pledged to protect the island from the mainland.[14] From that point on, both sides of the strait have ceased all major hostilities against each other, with the ROC Navy having resumed unilateral combat and escort duties while the US Navy secretly and quietly removed their extra warships from the Taiwan Strait.[15]
    ~
    Not only that but with President Chiang Kai-shek, U.S. President Dwight D. Eisenhower waved to crowds during his visit to Taipei, Taiwan in June 1960.
    ~
    So, American diplomats visiting Taiwan in not something out of the ordinary.
    ~
    And on top of every thing else the culture of Taiwan is 180 degrees different than the culture of the PRC and any attempt by China to return Taiwan to it’s pre-1895 status will only end in extreme hardship for the Taiwanese people.

    • I get your point that the US got Taiwan fair and square by nuking the Japanese but where does your last line come from? I never noticed any “extreme hardship” when I was in China (the PR one), and I don’t think Hong Kong is in any dire economic straits. China actually has the biggest economy on Earth, so being part of it probably wouldn’t be all that extreme of a hardship.

      • According to Elon Musk, in ten years China’s economy will be three to four times the size of the U.S. economy.
        ~
        So I guess that means they will be the new bully on the block.

        • Four times the size of the US economy in 10 years would require an annual growth rate 15% higher than the US, but if the Chinese economy is 4 times as big as the US that would mean they COULD be the new bully on the block. I will not, however, be learning Chinese. I tried.

    • I know a lot of people from Taiwan and they a re loathe to have China take over management of Taiwan.

      • Come on… You can surely do better than that! It’s like saying “I know a lot of Americans and they are loathe to have Orange Man Bad take the White House again”.
        Sure! About half of them. Then there’s the other half. Or are you one of those “CCP virus” adepts who fear the “bloodthirsty murderers of the Chinese Communist Party” swimming in shawls across the ocean with knives between their teeth to come and slit your throat while you’re asleep?

      • geopolitics don’t care about loathe and feelings. US empire has shown for the longest time might is always right, Russia just confirmed it, and then next up is China to add the icing on the cake.

        also look up nathan rich on youtube for his research of taiwan historical facts

      • To Timothy Michel – I suggest that your friends review the results achieved when the US executes its “humanitarian interventions” in other countries. The results are disastrous for the peoples of those countries. When it appears that the US is about to “spread democracy” in a country, there is only one course to follow – RUN LIKE HELL!

  • I thought “Nancy Pelosi has continued to pour gasoline on the foreign policy dumpster fire that is her planned visit to Taiwan next month” was the best turn of phrase I’d read lately until I got to “Our futures shouldn’t depend upon the better angels of the worst monsters”. Caitlin may not have a fancy degree or a big title or much of any actual relevant experience or expertise but you just don’t get her refined hypergolic command of the language anywhere else, and as for genuine expertise anything past a lick of fucking sense is mostly wasted in politics anyway. One eye is more than enough.

    I wonder if Republicans think that hoping the Chinese will shoot down Pelosi’s plane is an internal conflict. And it kills me that our future is pinned on the hope that the Chinese and Russian leadership isn’t as batshit crazy as ours.

    OK, slightly off topic but I haven’t seen anywhere and would just like to type out my impression the Russian SMO is something of a moment in history, comparable to the US Civil War being the first “modern” war, in that it’s arguably the first at least somewhat peer/peer precision guided munition war in history. On another site somebody would probably point out how I’m wrong. Anyway, just to tie it in this may be a significant factor in how hostilities over Taiwan might evolve.

    • I was going to comment that the ‘better angels’ line was one of the best I’ve heard in a long time.

    • “On another site somebody would probably point out how I’m wrong.”
      Or they might point that you are right, because you are.
      This war hasn’t taught me all that much, as least as its played out on the ground so far, the “new” technologies employed and so one. Gone pretty much as expected. But one thing I did learn, or at least was confirmed for me, modern missile tech have made air battles a thing of the past.
      The fighter, the bomber, the fighter-bomber, whatever, the manned war plane, unless it has the luxury of a mostly uncontested air space, is obsolete, and even when it does have relatively clean air, it is more or less irrelevant.
      It’s just a small airborne weapons platform carrying a limited amount missiles, nothing more, and one that should it venture into the wrong side of town, will get it’s ass shot down.
      Every time.
      And that alone is an historic game changer.
      The only question left for me, as far as this conventional war stuff goes, can the peer Navies, that’s the US vs China, duke it out with one other?
      I don’t think so, I think the idea is absurd. In order to sink the Chinese Navy, the US would have to get within land based missle range, and for China to do the same, the USN would have to be stupid enough, to sail to within that range.
      But, I could be wrong, and maybe we’re about to find out.

      • I should note, there actually has been one great shocker to me in this war, Russian helicopter gunships are able to survive in an environment were hand-held surface to air is everywhere.
        One Russian pilot told an interviewer he faced 17 missile attacks on his most recent flight.
        Was he bullshitting? I don’t think so, but even if he was, it was only by exaggeration.
        It is a mystery to me. Rotary aircraft losses should be catastrophic for the Russians at this point, but they’re not.
        Either the Russians figured something out with their flares, or shit come up at em is tragically inadequate.
        Or both.

        • I was personally told by somebody involved that if you fired a Stinger missile inside the kill cone of a Russian helicopter you were guaranteed a hit, and that was years ago. MPADS are short range systems and I expect you just try and stay over friendlies. If they’re getting a low kill rate I expect the biggest factor is operator error, probably the guy being in a hurry to get the thing off his shoulder and his head down. In any event I can tell you that helicopter vs. missile isn’t a contest.

          • Agree. Like I said, it’s a mystery,
            made even more so because I’ve seen at least 30 or 40 cockpit vids of Russian Hind’s flying over enemy (?) treelines/forests and rocketing them.
            I’m thinking the whole time, are you crazy, you can’t do that.

            • You’re probably not going to see cockpit vids from the ones that get hit.

      • Thanks for the validation, maybe I’m right, and you’re right about the obsolescence of manned aircraft. Apart from the relentlessly advancing sensors and computers, an unmanned vehicle can do maneuvers a human body physically can’t tolerate. Manned aircraft are still good for bombing defenseless little brown others, and of course Top Gun II couldn’t very well star a computer, but in-person organic killing is on the way out. And yeah, we may shortly be finding out about modern naval warfare. My latest contribution to the literature is expressing warship dimensions in multiples of anti-ship missile CEP (circular error probable). Nimitz class carriers are around 300×80 CEP, probably a bit less for the larger warheads. Tell me again how something is too stupid for the government?

        • “Manned aircraft are still good for bombing defenseless little brown others … ”
          Lmao … Yup, that’s about it, and as for our mighty carriers, they are an obsolete weapons platform carrying obsolete weapons platforms.

          • But the profits are cutting edge.

  • I guess it’s easier to gamble with other peoples’ lives when you don’t think about the real world consequences.

  • Is there any possibility of befriending the Chinese. If not ‘friendship’ at least an acquaintance and that the billions of Chinese are not our mortal enemies. One more thought: How come the “vicious” Russians have not bombed the hell out of the Ukraine capital. All ‘good’ armies attempt to destroy the capital of the enemy. Unless, the ‘theatre’ does not allow for such a scene. Clearly the Russians are part of a poorly written (yet killing field) script of which the USA gets co-authorship. Caitlin, we are fucked!!!!!

    • “Billions of Chinese” might be a bit of a stretch. There’s 1,4 billion of them in the Middle Empire and they probably don’t reach 2 billions if we add all the Chinatowns in the world. Apart from which, I agree with everything you said.

  • Exactly who is the winner of an all-out nuclear war?

  • Stupidity on this scale raises the following question in my mind: When did the US “leaders” make a good decision? I cannot think of even one major policy decision made during the 21st Century that has not been a disaster. The reaction to the 9/11 attacks has been rightly called the greatest geopolitical blunder in US history. Repercussions, all bad, from that train wreck still reverberate strongly in loss of money, lives and prestige, including making a mockery of the false claim of having “good values”. Hint to our “leaders:: those who torture and commit wholesale mass murder do not have “good values”.

    The US constantly screams about the “Chinese threat”. What is this threat? It is the inability of the US to compete economically with China. Why is the US not able to compete economically with China? Because the thieves who make policy decided that they could loot the US workers by deindustrializing the US and industriialzing China. Because that was done, we can no longer compete. Apparently the neoliberal geniuses believed that the all-powerful US could force China to be a vassal state of the US, yet another example of their great decision making. The same crowd then decided that they could attack Russia with their proxy war in Ukraine and keep China in the “US orbit”, another bit of folly. Instead, the US has driven the two countries together in a close alliance. The next brilliant move was to utilize the “sanctions from hell” that our moron Secretary of State kept screaming about. Predictably to all thinking people (who excludes our “leaders” in Washington, the sanctions boomeranged and Europe and the US is not paying a heavy price for that blunder. Now the US is risking a hot war with China with needless and foolish provocations which are supported by both sets of prostitutes in Congress. There appears to be no end to this foolishness.

    • With you all the way…except for 9/11. That was the one thing the deep state did that worked out precisely as planned.

      • I know you’re joking but he said the… “reaction to 9/11”. And they did screw that up big time (I mean literally, like in 20 fucking years).

  • “Chicken” has one of the silliest/scariest winning strategies to any game. To ensure victory, simply blindfold yourself and disable your steering wheel, and make sure the other side sees you do it first. By removing any possibility of steering away, you then force that decision upon your opponent.

    The only problem is when both sides try the same strategy at once, and the cars are filled with nukes…

  • I remember a few months ago, Scott Ritter said in an interview, that he feared the start of a nuclear war over the Taiwan issue and he put that to somewhere around September.
    I like the guy, but i would very much prefer if he weren’t right on this one.
    As i recall his reasoning was omething like – growing tensions over the issue, US using one of their “mini nukes” as a show of strength (he had some very interesting names for those he thought would make such a decision) and then escalation to literally the end.
    On the bright side, then at least noone would freeze or starve to death in this coming winter.

    • It’s always good to mention the bright side. It balances yin and yang. And there is always two sides in every situation and they’re of equal size like head and tail in a coin. The bigger the head, the bigger the tail. Man’s problem, apart from being unable to sit still in a room for any length of time, is that he generally only sees one side, from which stem frustration, anger and unhappiness.

  • It’s not just the leaders, the worst monsters. At least in the US, the populace has been indoctrinated in the churches since the early ’70s. The competing ideologies are theocratic and faith-based market capitalism. I’ve argued with many libertarians and they believe that we are in end times socialism. That’s how Trump, with a straight face, can call right wing Biden a communist. The liberals like Nancy, Joe and the squad also have faith in the gods of capitalism, but frame it differently to their more educated constituency. US foreign policy seems unreasonable because it is part of a faith-based, emotional, indoctrinated political economy. It’s not because these leaders are elderly. You could plug in Mayor Pete or Ted Cruz or even AOC, it’s the same equation, an algorithm that is the man behind the curtain.

  • The worst side of me would have all the elite take refuge in New Zealand before the missiles fly. Then only one missile need fly, headed toward New Zealand. This is the hatred of the enemy we must strive to eradicate from our hearts, but God it ain’t easy…

  • “…Republicans are aggressively pushing the narrative that if the trip doesn’t happen it will mean that “Communist China is winning.”

    Those Republicans are partially correct: China (and Russia, and the entire rest of the world outside the US and their allies in NATO/Western Europe, Japan, South Korea, and Australia) are “winning” whether or not Pelosi goes to Taiwan.

    “Winning” what? Some independence and respite from the violent malevolence and economic exploitation spearheaded by the warmongers currently dominating the US (in particular) and their allies abroad. (And I say, the “warmongers”, because the average US/European/etc. citizen is also abused and exploited by these people.)

    • Yeah, these fools don’t understand the game is over and they already lost. Unfortunately, they’re stupid enough to start a war that won’t stop.

      • A verbal exchange struck me in one of the beginning scenes of the movie Gladiator and has stayed with me ever since. As the battle with a Germanic tribe in contemporary Austria is about to begin, General Maximus’ lieutenant Quintus says to him: “People should know when they’re conquered!” Maximus replies wisely: “Would you, Quintus? Would I?” The US is not conquered but the wind of history is obviously blowing stronger and stronger against it by the day. That’s when the wise captain of a sailing ship would take in sail because keeping the same surface would break the masts and sink him.

        • Bravo my favorite too

          • Found it!

  • Nancy Pelosi would gleefully start a nuclear war with China, if she thought it would stop Donald Trump from the Presidency.

    • She would start a nuclear war if it gave her another fridge filled with artisanal ice cream.

      I wonder if her husband or herself have been making any unusual stock purchases lately? Y’know, something likely to soar in the event of hostilities (economic or more) with China?

      Perish the thought.

    • And a re-elected Trump would gleefully start a war with China to show his base how to deal with the CHINA Virus.

      • You mean the “CCP virus”? :o)

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