Ever since the Trump administration announced that it was no longer recognizing the legitimacy of the elected government of Venezuela I’ve been arguing with people on social media about this president’s brazen coup attempt in that country. The people arguing with me in favor of Trump’s interventionism are almost exclusively Trump supporters, with leftists and antiwar libertarians more or less on my side with this issue and rank-and-file centrists mostly preferring to sit this one out except to periodically mumble something about it being a distraction from the Mueller investigation.
I engage in these arguments not because I enjoy fighting with strangers on the internet, but because it helps me get an idea of what propaganda narratives have been seeded throughout various political sectors. Take a stand online and you’ll quickly have people running up to you saying, in effect, “My media echo chamber told me I’m supposed to disagree with you about that,” and spelling out what they’ve been told to believe.
I have not received a single robust argument in favor of Trump’s Venezuela interventionism, but I have received a whole lot of really, really stupid ones. Here are the top five most common and most astonishingly idiotic of them:
1. “Socialism is bad!”
Me: US interventionism is always disastrous and it always lies about its reasons for targeting South American and oil-rich nations.
Tsunami of Trump supporters: SOCIALISM IS BAD THO— Caitlin Johnstone (@caitoz) January 25, 2019
This one is easily the most common and most stupid of all the arguments I’ve been receiving. I’m not familiar enough with pro-Trump punditry to be able to describe how the MAGA crowd got it into their heads that attacking Venezuela has something to do with fighting socialism, but it’s clear from my interactions over the last couple of days that that is the dominant narrative they’ve got swirling around in their collective consciousness. Most of my arguments on this issue have either begun as or very quickly spun into an attempt to turn the debate about US interventionism in yet another South American nation into a debate about socialism vs capitalism.
Which is of course absurd. The campaign to topple Venezuela’s government has nothing to do with socialism, it’s about oil and regional hegemony. The US has long treated South America as its personal supply cabinet and destroyed anyone who tried to challenge that, and the fact that Venezuela has the most confirmed oil reserves of any nation on the planet makes it all the more central in this agenda. Yes, the fact that large sectors of its economy are centrally planned means there are fewer hooks for the corporatocracy to find purchase to manipulate it with, but that just helps explain why the US is targeting it with more aggressive measures, it doesn’t excuse the aggressive targeting. Venezuela does not belong to the United States, and attempting to control what happens with its resources, its economy and its government is an obscene violation of its national sovereignty.
Trying to turn a clean-cut debate about US interventionism into a debate about socialism is like if your family found out that your sister had just been raped, and you all started bickering about the pros and cons of feminism instead of focusing on the crime that had just happened to your loved one. It wouldn’t matter what kind of economic system Venezuela had; trying to overthrow its government is not okay. The narrative that this has something to do with championing capitalism is just a hook used to get Trump’s base on board with another unconscionable foreign entanglement.
2. “It’s not interventionism! There are no boots on the ground.”
Thread documenting some of the horrific actions facilitated by the Trump administration's new special envoy to Venezuela. Not for the squeamish.https://t.co/FVWEEDaIwM
— Caitlin Johnstone (@caitoz) January 26, 2019
Oh yes it is interventionism. Crushing economic sanctions, CIA covert ops, illegally occupying embassies, and a campaign to delegitimize a nation’s entire government are absolutely interventionism, and that is happening currently. It’s stupid to make “boots on the ground” your line in the sand when, for example, vast amounts of US resources can easily be poured into fomenting a “civil” war that could kill hundreds of thousands and displace millions as we saw with Syria. And from today’s news about the Trump administration’s appointment of bloodthirsty psychopath Elliot Abrams as the special envoy to Venezuela, it’s very reasonable to expect things to get a whole lot bloodier. Modern warmongering isn’t limited to the form of “boots on the ground”, and making that your litmus test is leaving yourself open to all the same disasters ushered in by the Obama administration.
3. “Maduro is bad!”
I have many critiques- from the left- of the Venezuelan govt.
But in no way should anyone support a US backed- or Ruling Class backed- opposition and coup.
The argument ppl starved by US sanctions should support a US backed unelected leader to stop US sanctions is just crazy.
— Boots Riley (@BootsRiley) January 24, 2019
I’ve never entered into any kind of argument about whether or not Nicolas Maduro is a nice person, because it’s not my game. If I spent all my time analyzing the quality of all the world’s governments I’d never get anything done; I focus my time and energy on the imperialism of the US-centralized power alliance because I see it as the single most dangerous force in the world. I’ve got no more reason to go picking apart the quality of Venezuela’s government than I do any other country in the world, yet my arguments against US interventionism in Venezuela are consistently met with a tsunami of social media posts about what a bad, bad man Maduro is.
I refuse to legitimize that false argument. It doesn’t matter whether Maduro is a saint or the worst person in the world; Venezuela is a sovereign nation and US regime change interventionism is always disastrous. Completely ignoring the obvious fact that the empire always launches an aggressive propaganda campaign to manufacture support for the elimination of its targets, there is no valid reason to support that targeting. Trying to drag the conversation into a debate about just how bad Maduro is is an attempt to legitimize an agenda that has no validity.
4. “I support the Venezuelan people!”
https://twitter.com/KyleKulinski/status/1088145439579357184
Again, that’s not the argument. The argument is whether it’s okay for the US government and its allies to violate Venezuela’s sovereignty with starvation sanctions, CIA covert ops, an active campaign to delegitimize its government, and possibly much worse in the future in order to advance the agenda of overthrowing its political system.
Of course there are people in Venezuela who don’t like their government; that’s true in your own country too. That doesn’t make it okay for a sprawling imperialist power to intervene in their political affairs. You’d think this would be obvious to everyone, but over and over again I run into people conflating Venezuelans sorting out Venezuelan domestic affairs with the US-centralized empire actively meddling in those affairs.
The US government doesn’t give a shit about the Venezuelan people; if it did it wouldn’t be crushing them with starvation sanctions. It isn’t about freedom, and it isn’t about democracy. The US backs 73 percent of the world’s dictatorships because those dictators facilitate the interests of the US power establishment, and a leaked State Department memo in 2017 spelled out the way the US government coddles US allies who violate human rights while attacking nonconforming governments for those same violations as a matter of policy. Acting like Trump’s aggressions against Venezuela have anything to do with human rights while he himself remains cuddly with the murderous theocracy of Saudi Arabia in the face of intense political pressure is willful ignorance at this point, and it’s inexcusable.
5. “You don’t understand what’s going on there! I talk to Venezuelans online!”
This is too perfect.
Anti-Maduro Venezuelan on 19 January: "I'm living in the cutest apartment in Paris studying fashion… life is good"
24 January: "I live here [Venezuela]. I live this. live with having rationed food, toilet paper, basic human necessities." pic.twitter.com/dKljbo5fvs
— Louis Allday (@Louis_Allday) January 24, 2019
Do you now?
First of all, this common argument is irrelevant for the reasons already discussed here; sure there are Venezuelans who don’t like their government, but their existence doesn’t justify US interventionism. Secondly, it’s a known fact that online trolls will be employed to help manufacture support for all sorts of geopolitical agendas, from Israel’s shill army to the MEK terror cult’s anti-Iran troll farm to the Bana Alabed psyop for Syria. And here’s this example, just for your information, of a Twitter account talking about how much fun she’s having in Paris and then a few days later claiming she’s in Venezuela waiting in “5+ hour queues to buy a loaf of bread.” Be skeptical of what strangers on social media tell you about what’s happening inside a nation that’s been targeted by the empire, please.
And that’s about it for this article. Let’s all try and talk about this thing with a little more intelligence and sanity, please.
____________________________
Thanks for reading! My articles are entirely reader-supported, so if you enjoyed this piece please consider sharing it around, liking me on Facebook, following my antics on Twitter, throwing some money into my hat on Patreon or Paypal, purchasing some of my sweet merchandise, buying my new book Rogue Nation: Psychonautical Adventures With Caitlin Johnstone, or my previous book Woke: A Field Guide for Utopia Preppers. The best way to get around the internet censors and make sure you see the stuff I publish is to subscribe to the mailing list for my website, which will get you an email notification for everything I publish.
Bitcoin donations:1Ac7PCQXoQoLA9Sh8fhAgiU3PHA2EX5Zm2
85 responses to “Top 5 Dumbest Arguments Defending Trump’s Venezuela Interventionism”
Say it isn’t so. My favorite blogger regurgitating the new biggest conspiracy theory on the internet. “Trump Wants Regime Change in Venezuela”! Oh the horror. And don’t be fooled by the fact that he’s only even been in politics for 2 years. Others bloggers have gone back and found interviews from 10 years ago that ‘clearly’ imply that he has been harboring this devious, and totally unprecedented plan for at least that long. So don’t believe those ‘Venezuelans’ you meet on the internet when they tell you they want Maduro gone. Or when they tell you that the Roman Empire existed, the Mongolian Empire existed, the British Empire existed or the Soviet Union existed. Nope. Truth is folks Trump and the good ol USA invented Empire and nation building. We invented it, we’re the only ones who ever did it, we’re the only ones doing it now, and everyone else is just the victim. Ask anyone from Tibet or Taiwan. The US just doped the history books with stories of empires spanning the entirety of human existence to downplay their own heinous schemes. They never really existed. There is no ‘Great Game’. Never was. If we left Venezuela to their own devices, they’d immediately begin selling their oil to everyone, at or below market prices, totally within the rules, so they can feed their people. Just like they always did before the big ugly TrumpSA came and messed up their utopia. Russia and China would DEFINITELY NOT be playing the exact same game at the exact same time. They would not already have agents in Venezuela cozying up to Maduro with counter proposals right now. What a crazy suggestion. And poor Maduro, right. Everyone bashing him so unfairly when all he wants to do is feed Venezuelans their pets, while he leverages three empires against each other for a sweetheart deal for himself. Like any peace and freedom-loving free marketeer would. So what if he had to stuff some ballot boxes? His victimhood is unprecedented in all the world. Give him a break.
Now that Caitlyn has set all this straight, here’s one more thing: those tens of thousands of Venezuelans anxiously staging themselves in Florida, waiting until their visa expire before they even consider going back (or staying illegally) are also not real. Yes there are some sleeping in my parents spare bedrooms. Yes there are some staying with pretty much all their friends. Yes they appear to be doing fundraisers every weekend in an effort to send basic necessities back to their trapped families. But its all a ruse. Get close enough to them and you’ll see they’re actually all just a bunch of ones and zeroes totally fabricated by the internet. And even though their families are also fake ones and zeroes, they all love Maduro and only want him to be emperor for life. Because let’s face it, Maduro, and Chavez before him, are perennial Nobel Peace Prize candidates. All they ever wanted to do was unselfishly bestow the greatest possible riches on their people, and I think all the facts show they accomplished that goal. Only a fool could look at Venezuela and put the blame anywhere else but where it belongs: On Trump. If this isn’t as obvious to you as it is to Caitlyn, its only because you lack her superior intelligence, insight and piety. She’s a mid 20s Australian. You think you know more about daily life in Venezuela than her? Que loco! So just accept it and try not to make a fool out of yourself in the process by acknowledging facts or 1000 years of human history. Or even the last 2. This is just more of the Trump World Domination scheme you’ve seen going on for 105 weeks now. Accept it or face mean Tweets!
Food for thought:
https://business.financialpost.com/opinion/lawrence-solomon-isolationist-trump-is-using-americas-economic-power-to-change-the-world
Yo SpartUSA!
Can you come and invade Blighty, that little island, from across the pond?
We dont have any oil, well only a ickle bit, but we are still trading in $’s. Would it help if I say we’re are ditching the dollar to get you interested? My good friends Gadaffi and Hussein suggested that latter one.
You see we have a several problems.
1. We got a group of Remoaners, Politicians and MSM usurping the original ‘Peoples Vote’ on the EU in 2016. Democracy is in the toilet…..help. We know from past experience your only too willing to spread it. How about sending Pompeo or Bolton over to do some speaches, I here they are particularly good at BS. We need people considered in high esteam to outshine our clueless PM.
2. We’ve got so many people/children below the poverty line it’s unbelievable. And the number of patriotic ex serviemen on the street is a national disgrace.
3. TMay’s has been strong and stable in having policies contributing to the deaths of thousands, according to recent UN report.
4. If it helps, You went to the Moon, Lee Harvey Oswald did it, Sirhan Sirhan did it, 9/11 was orchestrated by that cad Usuma Bin Laden and his AL-CIA-DA mob and the Skripal chemical attack WAS carried out by Putin in person.
regards
Lap dog Blighty, part of the Borg Collective
Rubio clowns to mask what a joke is US foreign policy:
https://www.rt.com/usa/449924-marco-rubio-venezuela-guaido/
The people that have been agueing for the intervention are failing to recognise INTERNATIONAL LAW, and the countries right to it’s Sovereignty ! They obviously have NO RESPECT FOR DEMOCRACY, so sounds to me they are in fact Globalists!
On another matter, of MORRISON being called a cu*t via a radio host yesterday, I would like the radio host to know the correct term political is “front-hole”, please try again! My support is with you!
“I have not received a single robust argument in favor of Trump’s Venezuela interventionism…”
.
I don’t have any robust arguments in favor of the Venezuela intervention but I question the assumption that it’s Trump’s. Would it be different if Obama were still president? Who’s really calling the shots here?:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/cia-venezuela-crisis-government-mike-pompeo-helping-install-new-remarks-a7859771.html
Where does the disloyal opposition stand on this? We know how much they adore Trump. They have a knee jerk negative response to EVERYTHING he suggests. Whatever it is, they’re against it before he even suggests it! Where do the Demonrats stand? Where does the Establishment media stand? Where does the Deep State stand? And Trump has a longstanding non-interventionist position. Is this a kumbaya moment of some kind? Isn’t there something suspiciously inconsistent about this?
While I dont support our never ending “humanitarian interventions” I will say that it seemed Maduro was a deteriorating mess. And unfortanetly in this shark pond having oil is like underpants soaked in blood.
Coincidence the temporary opening of government simultaneous with yhis intervention?
May Rubio rot in hell with his friends Hillary and McCain.
Caitlin: On point and exceptional, as always. You’re absolutely right; it’s all about oil. I thought this article summed that up nicely: https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-01-25/luongo-trump-betrays-maga-over-venezuela
“Socialism is bad!” as an excuse:
I would ask them whether that implies they want to get rid of socialism in the US. That includes, but is certainly not limited to:
“social security”, medicare, public schools, police forces, government run fire departments, public roads, TSA, FAA, FDA, the federal reserve
You were on ok ground until you included the federal reserve in your list. The FED has 12 regional branches that are privately owned. There are arguments that other parts of the FED are quasi public but I tell folks that is like saying that a woman is partially pregnant. The Central Banks of most of the Western world are privately held as are the City of London and components I wrote about in my earlier comment.
Technically, yes, the Fed is privately owned.
But it functions as an arm of the federal government. It has government-mandated monopoly powers and implements government policy (though they pretend otherwise).
It is moot to say something is “privately owned”, when it is entirely controlled by the government.
You are mistaken. How about you read the Secrets of the Temple by William Greider and stop spreading lies on Catlin’s venue.
You can argue that the federal government is controlled, or at least manipulated by “higher” powers. I would not disagree with that assertion.
But, regardless, the Fed is still controlled by the federal government.
PS: Why the hostility? Why is your “truth” the “universal truth” to which all others must comply?
I am sure
Caitlin is quite capable of “policing” her own venue without your help.
I will continue to call out your lie that the US federal government controls the FED and have given you a link to a book to prove my point.
Stop spreading a lie you cannot back up and the implications of which you seem to want to defend
Andrew, “It is moot to say something is ‘privately owned’, when it is entirely controlled by the government.”
That is completely backwards. It is the fed that controls the government.
Exactly. Since 1913 the FED has owned the U.S. Treasury and the debt-based USD monetary system. The FED creates the debt, the Treasury digitizes/prints (monetizes) the debt, the FED issues the debt and provides first access to the debt by it’s banks, who structure and extend the debt to the economic stream–at interest. A complete fraud and theft of the people’s medium of exchange.
CB, if the people understood how fractional reserve banking and the Fed worked there would be a revolution within hours. But as it stands now there is maybe one out of ten thousand people in the US who have any idea how the scheme actually works, IMHO.
To any reader interested, I highly suggest reading The Creature From Jekyll Island. A thick tome but it reads like a mystery and will change your view forever.
What I’m starting to realize is that we are dealing not only with a group of pitiless psychopaths but a worldwide cabal of high-class con artists and grifters worthy of “The Sting” or Mamet’s “House of Games.” Yes, it’s about money, as Smedley Butler explained he was a “gangster for capitalism” in three continents, but it’s also about motivated by something much more. We still haven’t grasped their ultimate aberrant psychology sufficiently to oppose it effectively and we must. Study the psychology of criminal confidence artists as a start.
The pride and self-fulfillment they get in “taking” the public through smooth tricks, to “prove” they are smarter than We, the Herd, and can “outsmart” all of us, “marks” who think they are better, even when they leave “tells” lying all over the place, which is why they have a need to leave enormous tells as clues, as they did in the 911 caper, the most grandiose of all Big Cons in human history. It justifies their lack of empathy for the crimes they commit because they get to “show off” their superior mental agility and demonstrate their utter impunity to our laws, just as Nietzsche and Rand supposed.
Spot on. Human scale restructuring of the social order seems to be the only way out. Not sure there is a path forward given the state’s propensity for violent conquest and domination, but maybe….
Venezuela’s descent into economic and political chaos in recent years is a cautionary tale of the dangerous influence that resource wealth can have on developing countries.
https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/venezuela-crisis?utm_medium=social_share&utm_source=emailfwd
It’s so easy so sit back and do nothing with a noninterventionist mentality. During World War II had we done that many of us would not be alive today. China and Russia are amongst the few who seem to like the status quo if that means anything.
Re 1 and 4. The Trumpists’ position makes sense from the standpoint of their general worldview and values. After all, the motive and the nature&consequences of what is done are too different things. Yes, the US is motivated to restore neoliberal capitalism because of its own selfish interests. That in itself doesn’t change the fact that what it is doing *is* restoring neoliberal capitalism. If restoring neoliberal capitalism were a good thing, that would be good regardless of the motives of the US. The Trumpists, unlike me, do believe that it is a good thing, and it is a higher priority than national sovereignty for them (which is not too difficult, since they have never actually cared about other nations’ sovereignty as a value in itself), so I don’t think your arguments will convince them. Even I would agree that principles such as democracy and socialism could, theoretically, override national sovereignty, albeit not in the form of arbitrary violations of international law. After all, the only point of national sovereignty is to express individual sovereignty, and democracy and socialism greatly increase the connection between the two. It’s just that the actions of the US would have the exact opposite result both in Venezuela and in the world as a whole.
.
Re 3. I agree with the point about focus, but it does matter how bad the specific regime is, IMO. Even I wouldn’t oppose a regime-change operation or intervention against a *literal* Hitler during a *literal* Holocaust, and I believe that only few people would. And I wouldn’t assume the principle that every *US* intervention is disastrous without looking at the specific circumstances, even though it usually is so in the modern world; there can be no permanent law of nature connecting a single nation to evil – that would be essentialism and anti-American chauvinism. It’s just that Maduro isn’t Hitler; very few rulers are exactly Hitler. To radical right-wingers, however, socialism is as bad as Hitler (actually, to them, socialism is what’s bad *about* Hitler).
.
Re 4 and 5. Indeed, it’s funny that people seem to think that once they have met one member of country X, they’ve met them all and know what the people of X are like. Under globalisation, mobility is power, and the elites are the most mobile; the foreigners most likely to talk to you are those who travel, are relatively well-educated, speak (good) English, have internet and social media accounts, spend time on English-language sites, etc., and these will tend to be rich and pro-Western people, hence relatively right-wing, especially on economic policy. That Boots Riley fellow made some good points; I am a non-Westerner, in spite of my screenname, so I can confirm that I have observed (and previously formulated) the exact same dynamic ‘from the other side’.
Unless people agree upon EXACT, UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTED definitions of the most important words of our time –“terrorist”, “terrorism”, “socialism”, “capitalism” and “government”, there will be nothing but never-ending, fruitless opinions and debates among the members of a bewildered herd, which is precisely what our transnational ruling Elite wants. Even that relatively simple task/goal may be impossible. If it is, we don’t have a hope in hell of changing anything, although if you want to send a strong message to the Rulers, don’t have any children (future debt slaves and consumers) and convert all of your investments and savings into cash bills and use only cash for as many purchases as possible. These relatively simple acts will send a shockwave of desperation through “minds” of the Elite
..
After watching the performances at Davos, I know that the 0.0001% ruling Elite have nothing but the best of intentions for the other 99.9999%. All we have to do is let them continue to rule us and ………….
Precisely. To the money powers who own the world, most human beings are nothing more than farm animals to work the global economic plantation. Those who understand how the global financial system works, must accept that nothing can be done to change it because of the scale and power it has achieved. That doesn’t mean we have to remain on the plantation, as you suggest.
Precisely. To the money powers who own the world, most human beings are nothing more than farm animals to work the global economic plantation. Those who understand how the global financial system works, must accept that nothing can be done to change it because of the scale and power it has achieved. But, that doesn’t mean we have to remain on the plantation, as you suggest.
Caitlin, to your point 2: “It’s not interventionism! There are no boots on the ground.”
The ultimate objective and result of every human society at significant scale is the concentration of power–the power to control all resources, human and natural, within a specified geographic boundary. In every nation that power has been achieved by a monopoly use of violent force. Every large society is dominated by a class of power-hungry, ruthless psychopaths that exploit the ignorant and vulnerable masses. Through the annals of human history the story reads the same, over and over again. The U.S. interference in the political system of Venezuela and countless other countries around the world is an object lesson in the dynamics of all large, highly structured social-economic-political systems. Invasion, conquest, expropriation, and autocratic domination of the population by a predatory class is inevitable in human society at significant scale. The inevitable human condition produced by all large social-economic-political systems is not the inescapable result of the “form” of human organization, but the “function”. All large human organizations, regardless of definition, are formed by the central power structures that control them. However, the viability of every human organization at significant scale ultimately requires the support of the people, and their acceptance of common values and standards of moral conduct. Absent these moral imperatives, the social order soon devolves into chaos and dissolution. Central power structures in every society work to divide and confuse the people, and distort their sense of humanity and justice. When successful, the masses will volunteer to slaughter one another for a flag, or for a loaf of bread. Highly centralized power structures are essential to the concentration of great wealth. Concentrated wealth is required to control and maintain the support of the legions of sociopathic enforcers and parasitic drones that operate the government protection machine for the ruling predators. The recent appointment of Elliott Abrams as Special Envoy to Venezuela should open the eyes of all Americans to the actual ‘form’ of government that rules them. Elliott Abrams, we should remember, served as Assistant Secretary of State for Inter-American Affairs in the 1980s. He was directly responsible for U.S. government foreign policy and the violent, unconstitutional military interventions in El Salvador, Honduras, Guatemala and Nicaragua that resulted in the slaughter of tens of thousands of innocent civilians. He played a central role in the Iran-Contra scandal and was convicted of perjury in the related cover up, after which he was immediately pardoned by President George H. W. Bush. Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International condemned Abrams for widespread crimes against humanity in Central America. He is a founding member of the Project For A New American Century, the neoconservative think tank directly connected to the formulation of the unconstitutional Patriotic Act that was implemented in the immediate aftermath by the U.S. Congress without debate. Abrams served as National Security Advisor to George W. Bush during the government’s cover-up of the 9/11 false flag attacks. In 2002, he directly guided the CIA-backed coup attempt against President Hugo Chavez in Venezuela. You can clearly begin to see the pattern here with this man. In his 1997 book “Faith or Fear”, Abrams wrote the following: “Outside the land of Israel, there can be no doubt that Jews, faithful to the covenant between God and Abraham, are to stand apart from the nation in which they live. It is the very nature of being Jewish to be apart”. This from a man notorious for his crimes against humanity, and who has once again been placed in a high position of U.S. government power with authority for foreign policy. This was accomplished by the Zionist power structure that dominates every realm of the social, economic, and political order in America. Dual U.S./Israeli citizens are the only foreign citizens allowed to serve in U.S. government positions. Ask yourself, Why? Israeli dual nationals and pro-Israel zealots dominate America’s insane foreign policy, which is destined to repeat in Venezuela the same immoral, destructive and destabilizing results it has incessantly visited upon countless sovereign countries and their people for the past 100 years.
Well said! Congratulations. Thanks for taking the time and effort. You’re preaching mostly to converted, but at least other commenters know they’re not alone.
Those who search for the truth and want to live in peace are perhaps only a remnant, but we are not alone. Thanks for the comment.
Way too many absolutes here. I’m sorry. I could not read it all. KISS
Rod, if the absolutes are too difficult to digest, don’t read the comment–it’s only meant to be food for thought. I’m not trying to sell Kool Aid to anyone. You’ll find all the KISS you want on MSM.
It was intended as constructive criticism. Absolutes are very difficult to defend. I’m sure I could rip your arguments to shreds if I wanted to waste the time. Try logic. BTW, how do you not read a comment after reading it?
.
Go ahead. Unread this.
Your comment was “way too many absolutes here”. So, how deep do you have to read before you recognize the pattern and connect the dots. Stop reading if don’t like where the path is headed. Here’s the logic: there are no absolutes accept the ones you believe. I’m not trying to convince you of anything. The comments either enlighten and have value to you or they don’t. I normally figure out which way the thought process is headed in the first paragraph, and then decide to read or ‘unread’. I’m sure you do the same.
“I’m sure you do the same.”
.
I’m sure you’re sure.
I’m not a theologian, and polemics are not needed for inane one liners. You sound like little Johnny who asks the teacher to be excused because his brain is tired. Try to string more than two coherent sentences together and I’ll respond. Otherwise, I’ll exchange absolutes with someone who actually tries to think.
Charlie,
My sureness was in reply to your comment as follows:
“I normally figure out which way the thought process is headed in the first paragraph, and then decide to read or ‘unread’. ”
.
This entire stupid conversation started by me telling you I didn’t finish your initial post because of the ridiculous string of absolutes in the first few sentences. Your entire post was “the first paragraph.” And your later comment showed that you didn’t even understand the plain English in my first reply. You reacted defensively instead of learning. You haven’t stopped. Don’t blame me for your own inability to reason. Why should anyone waste time arguing with someone who is so into their own head that they ignore what the other person writes? Now, you devolve into “little Johnny” insults. Pathetic.
Boom! Well said.
Exactly wrong!
CB, exactly! Well said. I think the reason why so many people who claim they want harmony are actually just other power lusting control freaks is because they end up doing what they just claim to have overthrown. Liberty is the only – and necessary – suppressor to keep power restrained to just a few flickers scattered around only where absolutely needed.
So true, excellent point. The lust for power, and the exclusive privilege and material advantage it affords, is the most the pernicious threat to human freedom. The lust for power has destroyed America, and its promise to those who struggle to be free. The central money powers have complete control of the U.S. government and those of every western nation. They own and control virtually the entire financial and property asset structures of our societies. Many years ago an old black made the following prescient comment to me: “Son, you can’t help those who believe are free when they still have invisible chains around their necks”. That wise old man’s comments struck a chord with me. The bottom line is we either own our lives, our bodies and our labor as free men and women, or we don’t. Human bondage is more of a mental condition than a physical one.
CB, money is only power by the wealthy if the money is an instrument of debt. If money is an instrument of production then monetary power is spread more evenly. Couple this with a government system that has very few powers and with those few powers spread out widely then corruption (overt or covert) – “wealthy” power – is reduced greatly. Power is the enemy. Freedom is the only check on power.
“Human bondage is more of a mental condition than a physical one.”
Absolutely. And so many have enslaved themselves with their own willful ignorance and mindless emotionalism.
Agree. But, somehow the supply of money must be controlled with integrity and directly tied to the rate of production. Otherwise, it will be inflated and create adverse incentives to over supply. The only solution that I can imagine is the human scale solution based on common values and commitment to individual liberty. Somehow, the people must find a just and honorable way to harness the power to control the medium of exchange.
CB, get out of my head!!! Dude, you are saying exactly my own thoughts.
“The only solution that I can imagine is the human scale solution based on common values and commitment to individual liberty.”
Perfection! The most important value of all is upholding the sacredness of Truth. Truth demands Integrity. It is impossible to have one without the other. The old saying of the people mock Honor while complaining at the same time about why there are so many dishonorable leaders is apt.
Yep.
Yet for some reason many are afraid to call it the Anglo-Zionist empire.
“Why I Use the Term ‘AngloZionist’, and Why It’s Important”
https://thesaker.is/why-i-use-the-term-anglozionist-and-why-its-important/
“The US Empire is run by a 1% (or less) elite which can be called the “deep state” which is composed of two main groups: Anglos and Jews. These two groups are in many ways hostile to each other (just like the SS and SA or Trotskysts and Stalinists), but they share 1) a racist outlook on the rest of mankind 2) a messianic ideology 3) a phenomenal propensity for violence 4) an obsession with money and greed and its power to corrupt. So they work together almost all the time.”
Orlando, Your point is well taken. I’ve followed Saker for a long time and agree with much of his Anglo-Zionist 1% thesis. But as he makes clear, we must take great care not to confuse 1% of a particular identity group with an entire population of people.
Totally agree. I believe the average Anglo, Jew or human for that matter want very similar things and naturally follow the rule of reciprocity.
It is the sociopaths and psychopaths who have taken control and as you have stated exploit, the ignorant and vulnerable into following along with their genocidal agenda.
The difficulty for many is breaking that programming/narrative given to them since birth.
This is a very compelling argument. If you assume human civilization started in 1776 and only exists in America. But I don’t think you think that. Quite to the contrary you offer a few revelations that have a near miss with the truth, which is this: THIS IS WHAT ALL HUMANS HAVE DONE TO EACH OTHER FOR ALL TIME. Innocent victims? During Iran Contra? Are you serious? So nobody south of the Rio Grande, EVER BENEFITTED FROM THE SALE OF COCAINE? Government, businessman or individual? That’s hilarious. And likewise 17 nations didn’t surrender themselves to the umbrella of the USSR for the promise of a communist wealth acquired by doing pretty much nothing besides building 9000 nukes and pointing them at the USA? Sorry but you don’t get to collect your stipend then say ‘well, I don’t really support this’.
Everybody from Caitlyn down is doing the same thing. Presenting one side of the argument in the ugliest possible terms, and leaving the unspoken assumption to be that Venezuela could simply return to the centuries of prosperous self sufficiency they’re known for were it not for Trump and the US bullying them. THAT IS TOTAL FUCKING NONSENSE. Russia and China have agents in Venezuela applying the same leverage the US is. They have an equal thirst for Venezuelan oil and an equal disinterest in how the thing that works for them works for the people of Venezuela. Chavez and Maduro have put Venezuelans in the unenviable position of having to choose between multiple bad options. That’s on them and the Venezuelans that went along with their pie in the sky socialist promises . We represent one of those bad choices. I acknowledge that. But we are only playing the leverage they gave us. We did not create this situation, nor is any other nation vying to barge in and do the right thing. Everybody else with leverage is using it just the same. BECAUSE THIS IS THE REALITY OF THE WORLD FOR ALL TIME. Empires are the one constant in all of world history. Somebody is always trying to build one and someone else is always trying to topple one, but we’re ALL featured in the story. NOBODY is innocent. NOBODY is a victim. Sorry if you didn’t know. its only been this way for a little over 3000 years. This is the entire story of mankind. Not just elitists. Not just Americans. Not just Trump. And for the record, when they’re destitute and starving people are more loyal to food that to any political ideology. The fact that you have never been in this situation is the only reason you would possibly believe the moronic claims that ‘they all still support Maduro’. I promise you, who is president is the last thing on your mind when you just ate your last pet a week ago. So virtue signaling your bleeding heart from your privileged perspective just makes you all look ridiculous. You’re discounting the real everyday plight of Venezuelans right now while denying all of history. PEOPLE build empires for themselves. Everyone participates. And when they grow corrupt and start crumbling, the next people tear them down and start over. But nobody is a victim. Whether its us or someone else this is the only future for Venezuela. Blaming Trump is just impossibly clueless. No Venezuela doesn’t have a lot of great options. They did this to themselves. But they’d be better off as our ally than as a vassal of the new USSR. Another fact that history proves clearly. Assuming you know care to notice.
And, precisely, how does your rambling post relate to my comments? “Precisely?”.
So, according to your circular argument there is no villain and no victim–ever. We’re all just destined to slaughter each other, by some cosmic design and inevitable reversion to zero sum type. The avaricious predators and murderous psychopaths with their hands on the levers of state control notwithstanding, everyone is just reverting to type–no villains, no victims. Right. What a bunch of shallow, indefensible bullshit. Such a specious argument for violent aggression can’t be reconciled with the rational pursuit of justice. Period. Contrary to your warped preconceptions, moral absolutes do exist, perhaps not for you, but for some. Those absolutes should, at least in theory, define our ultimate hope for the human condition. In the interim, here is a simple illustration for you to ponder: I would be pleased to voluntarily trade my apples for your oranges over the backyard fence. But, if you cross the fence without my permission, I will own your ass–and your oranges. Moral of the story: stay on your side of the fence, unless I invite you over for dinner. I’ll do the same. When Ameria cleans up its own shit hole cities, returns its weary, exploited troops from the 700+ military bases around the world, stops pandering to the legions of legal “victims” at home, puts the criminal war financiers and government whores who serve them in chains, and lives up to the promise of the Declaration, then maybe–just maybe– we will have the moral standing to exercise our righteous prerogative to invade and rescue the starving proletariat in Venezuela who are struggling for ‘democracy and self-determination’.
I agree very much with the main thrust of this article but I disagree with one point, the one about Socialism. Real Socialism often works quite well until the U.S. or some other profit system based country interferes. The idea that a country’s economy can run so well when the land, natural resources and so on are owned by all of the people through their government damages the false narrative that only the profit system works. This scared the … out of our 1% who want us to quietly accept that our diseased economic system, in which 99% of us produce and the 1% who are parasites, consume. Oil is only one kind of natural resource they want owned privately, that is why we only disturb creepy monarchies like Saudi Arabia when they seem to be stepping out of line.
That this is true can be seen in how the 1% and their servants are trying to privatize everything public in our own country. First you underfund it, like public education, the VA and the USPS, and then you say it is not working well, and so starts the long push into privatization. In our country what works best was once public institutions like the VA and the USPS, and the TVA from an earlier era. It is greed that does the most damage to our country. We want to control and own the whole world so that we can force it to serve us, especially with a continuing flow of obscene profits. There are other human evils we all have, but it is the idea that Socialism works that has our 1% in a tizzy. Russia is getting it in the neck most because they interfere with our growing economic world hegemony.
Any time a country goes left the alarms go off in corporate boardrooms: their comfort is being challenged and even mass murder will be used to protect it.
Alan, if TPTB are so against socialism why are TPTB the ones pushing for worldwide socialism?
Well said, Alan.
“Real Socialism often works quite well until the U.S. or some other profit system based country interferes.”
.
No it doesn’t.
A fascinating aspect of this malevolent hoax is that President Trump is using the arguments the Deep State, Democrats and the purportedly “mainstream” media are using to argue in favor of deposing him in a soft coup, to justify the United States attempt to stage a coup against the elected president of Venezuela. How darkly ironic.
Succinct and to the point. It does appear that way. But do you really think it’s Trump?
By what authority? This is the central argument against the US interfering in Venezuela (and everywhere else). I ask my conservative friends where exactly in their beloved constitution does it give the US authority to decide who runs another country (except during war – a constitutionally declared war). They cannot answer yet they still support US hypocrisy.
Re: 1, Very true but it must also be noted that the left falsely tries to blame these interventions on “capitalism” as an argument against such action. Both sides use the socialism v “capitalism” argument to make their case.
Venezuela is not being invaded by the US for the benefit of the US. It is being invaded by the zionist New World Order Globalists. The US military is simply the money powers’ enforcer.
An interesting side note: I recently watched a Yapping Head on I believe Fox discussing the US soldiers killed in Syria and she declared that “they died fighting for American interests” instead of the usual great lie “They died defending our freedoms”. It is not the full truth (they died fighting for the ZNWOG) but I think it is telling that the “they are fighting to defend our freedom” bullshit is no longer seen as truthful. There might be some hope left.
Zionist, schmionist. The Rothchilds were brilliant. The envious barbarians enjoy the fruits of their civilization while spitting on their benefactors.
Yep, brilliant. Barbarians is precisely how they view the unwashed herd. Central bankers and the political whores who serve them did not produce civilization, they are parasites that ride the back of those who create and produce. Private, debt-based, fiat monetary systems do not contribute to human development and advancement, only our destruction.
Yes, I see you’re quite the polemicist, Charlie. But even a cockeyed theologian should be able to see that you missed the point again.
Last try. I’m not being defensive with you, Rod. I really don’t care what you think. Why don’t you try to articulate your objections to the alleged “ridiculous string of arguments” in my initial comment that you “could rip to shreds”? If you’re prepared to actually invest some intellectual energy I’ll be happy to listen to anything of substance you have to say. If not, don’t waste my time with shallow polemics or smart-ass one liners. If you have the capacity to reason and can comprehend the depth of thought required to have a meaningful discussion of the subject matter of Caitlin’s last post, I’ll go there with you. Perhaps we will both learn something from the process. Otherwise, don’t squander more neurons on the exchange– and neither will I.
“Last try. I’m not being defensive with you, Rod. I really don’t care what you think.”
.
Great! I get the last word!
.
Yes, you’ve been extremely defensive since my first reply to you. So defensive, you took it personally rather than give any thought whatsoever to the advice I offered a fellow dissenter. You’re still moaning about it.
.
Charlie: “Why don’t you try to articulate your objections to the alleged ‘ridiculous string of arguments’ in my initial comment that you ‘could rip to shreds’?”
.
You misquoted me. Straw man setup. But you probably don’t even know it.
.
But for the 3rd time, I didn’t read your “arguments.” Why don’t you understand that? Didn’t I apologize for that immediately? Never mind. Rhetorical questions.
Exactly. Well said.
Puppet dictatorships are easy to control, all you have to do buy and pay for them that’s what the USA corporate elite is all about. if that doesn’t work they use of force will be mobilized,this bunch of warmongers cannot be trusted period
Exactly. In the West, the puppet dictators are elected. Democracy at work!
Hi
Have you read John Michael Greer ‘Twighlight’s Last Gleaming’ (2015)? It’s a good yarn, a page turner set in the not so distant future. By the time the story opens the ‘Venezuela War’ is in the past, like the ‘Iraq War’. So, ‘Regime Change’, what’s new?
best
Phil H
But think of the reverse! Let’s say US voters elect President Sanders in 2020. Bolton, Trump and company could refuse to recognize him as president, declaring Hillary Clinton as the legitimate president, using this same logic. Why not? What they’re practicing in Venezuela can be turned around and used at home by the warwhores.
Venezuela has just decided to recognize Bernie Sanders as the legitimate president of the United States. Bernie will swear himself in tomorrow.
Why not? That has probably more justification than this. Where does this stop?
Hey! That sounds like a good idea! Let’s do it!
I would remind everybody that the people who have stolen our government and are behind this Venezuela bullshit feel no more kinship with American non-elites than they do with Venezuelans. Like Carlin said, we are not in the club and they literally do not give a fuck about us. They will starve Venezuelans one day and do the same exact thing to people in New York or Detroit or Oklahoma the next day with the exact same lack of conscience or compassion. So any non-elite defending the harms inflicted on Venezuelans are literally defending the harms that are and will be inflicted on themselves.
I like the comment by Sergei Lavrov (Russian Foreign Minister) that we don’t need a Mueller to know who’s meddling in Venezuela.
Perfect.
Agreed.
I know, not much of a comment. But I too am frustrated with the bullshit justifications for this, “Overthow Madero” kind of, United Fruit company / CIA murder crap.
A very astute piece of writing Caitlin. amerikkka always interferes in every election except when it comes to Palestine and Northern Ireland. Those are taboo and we don’t ever criticize the brutality and horrors of the UK and Israel.
Bingo!
Catlin: One of the best, I mean just excellent pieces that you have written. So timely, clear, factual, and steadfast on the focus of the United States imperial behavior. Not once were you distracted by the chorus of ignorance, ill-will that besets our government, and a mass of the citizenry.
Where have I heard those arguments before? Hmmm…?
Iraq, Libya, Syria… just what we need. A replay of those fiascos destabilizing another large region of the world. Brilliant.
Some people never learn.
Exactly, same stupid impotent broken record arguments, different country. Let’s not forget, Cuba, South Vietnam, South Korea, Ecuador, Guatemala, Iran… everywhere but Palestine and Northern Ireland where INTERVENTION should be a NO BRAINER!.
Reminded again of:
“Socialism for the rich, capitalism for the rest of you poor bastards!”
Here in the USA we’ve already got corrupted “socialism”. But just for our elites.
They retain their profits, but externalize the costs of their screw-ups, to society at large.
Never the less, “Socialism” has been turned into a “dog whistle” buzzword.
Other than societal destabilization through increased citizen misery, has US sanctioning ever ACTUALLY, REDIRECTED any “rogue” regime’s leadership, anywhere in the world, ever, ….. to be more favorable to the US’ agenda?
Or, is sanctioning strictly another version of Sherman’s March to the Sea, or our fire bombing of Dresden?
Sanction a weak country into near collapse, and then blame the human misery and unrest on the “evil” leadership!
Well said. Funny how those who hate socialism are the ones idolizing government subsidized industries like agriculture (farmers), fossil fuels (coal miners & cheap gas), and military contractors (protecting the troops!). We spend billions (possibly trillions) propping up these already ludicrously profitable industries because they wield so much influence but god forbid a poor person gets sick or their kid wants a quality education.
They love socialism as long as it’s not supporting poor people and “others”.
Thank you Caitlin Johnstone. I enjoyed this piece for its unbiased, succinct and clear-eyed summary of why it’s not ok for US to continue its empire building by stealth. Exceptionalism may actually be a characteristic America imported from the British. Here in the UK there is very little shame re the horrific injustices perpetrated throughout the British Empire. In fact there are those who believe we are somehow superior to the rest of the world and, instead of apologising and trying to make reparations, we should be given special treatment!
NB This attitude is by no means exclusive to our anachronistic ruling class.
Succinctly put. Dispassionate arguments and very well written. Thank you Caitlin
@ Catlin who wrote:
”
I focus my time and energy on the imperialism of the US-centralized empire because I see it as the single most dangerous force in the world.
”
I am going to offer a friendly upgrade to the definition of your focus and then what that means to what is happening.
I am suggesting you replace “US-centralized” with “global” because the US being the Reserve Currency aspect of empire is only one part. The private Bureau of International Settlements (BIS) is in Switzerland and controls/manipulates all international currency transactions. The SWIFT clearing system of banking transactions is private and has significant impact over commerce. The World Bank and the IMF are private and are the warlords of global debt.
Now about Trump and Venezuela
Trump has the role of throwing America under the bus so that the other elements of global private finance can continue to exist in our world. He is good at running organizations into bankruptcy, right? What do you think the outcome is going to be of his international perfidy? Venezuela is just one the shit shows he has going on the circus floor.
Nations will shun America and keep being controlled by global private finance that will find another Reserve Currency victim. That is unless all the tools of finance are magically made to be a public utility.
Keep on speaking truth to power Catlin and thanks. Not enough are even trying.
“Trump has the role of throwing America under the bus so that the other elements of global private finance can continue to exist in our world.”
.
You chose a good handle.
The genocidal lunatics and whores that run the US would not waste a dime on intervening were it not for all that oil. Its like a bunch of addicts who can never get enough meth.
That is another dumb argument. The US has been happy all along to pay for Venezuelan oil and still does. When I arrived in Venezuela in 2000, the country was pumping 3.1 mbd, when I left 18 years later, it was pumping 1.1 mbd, some half of it going to China to repay the debt that should not have occurred in a major oil producing country, hence the horrendous living conditions of the population and believe me I was there all those years, not a troll as suggested in the article, More than half of my wife family has already migrated, Canada, Italy, Mexico, Spain, Switzerland, USA. I would say: throw the bums out.